Behind the scenes of the Jacinda interview

How we decided to approach it; how people reacted afterwards

I’ve been thinking about tension, and how much more challenging it is to get through than a specific obstacle. It took me a while to work this out but I’ve realised that some of the toughest moments in my professional life have not been when I’ve had something hard to overcome - at least then you know what the challenge is and what successful completion will look like - but when I’ve felt pulled in two or more different directions. When one person wants you to complete a task one way and another wants you to do it in a different way, the best you can hope for is that both end up mildly disappointed.

Dame Jacinda Ardern did a small selection of media interviews this week to promote her book A Different Kind of Power and she chose our little Afternoons show to represent radio. The charitable view of this choice was that she wanted a less confrontational format to talk about a less confrontational form of politics, but I’m sure plenty thought she’d chosen us over the Nine to Noons and Guyon Espiners of this world because she wanted an easy ride.

We have a chatty style of radio show and my main goal with a guest - even a big name guest - is to let them say what they came here to say, occasionally pushing back if I think my audience will be unsatisfied with their argument. But behind the scenes we had quite a fulsome chat about the Jacinda interview. This should not, was the view, be an overly friendly conversation but an opportunity to hold a former prime minister accountable for some of the decisions she made while in office.

I quite enjoy that sort of harder interview despite not often doing it, but I worried about it jarring with our regular audience. When everything you ever hear after 1pm is warm and welcoming, what would you make of the host you know so well being inexplicably serious and cynical?

There was a second but distinct tension, between people who like (love!) Jacinda and people who dislike (hate!) Jacinda. I know some who think she’s one of the greatest humans ever to walk the earth, while others believer her to be the sole cause of every division in modern New Zealand society. Even more mild opinions are split - is she a nice, capable person who got saddled with a hopeless cabinet and a series of unfortunate events? Or is she a disingenuous uber-communicator who can put a positive spin on anything but refuses to accept responsibility for six years of missed opportunities?

For all these reasons the interview prep was a stressful experience, and even once the interview (7am, live from Boston, full studio camera set up, the day before I hosted the music awards) was over I wasn’t sure how to feel about it. When you know you can’t please everyone (or anyone), there’s no real high five moment.

My theory of media is “when in doubt, say it out loud” so after some consideration I started with this question:

“This is the first media interview you’ve done in New Zealand for a long time and I feel like half of the people watching will want me to hold you to account for some of the stuff that happened while you were prime minister, and the other half just want me to check you’re okay and express regret for a lot of the stuff that happened while she was in New Zealand. So with both of those people in mind let me ask you this: where have you been?”

You can watch her response and the rest of the interview here.

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We have a great time on our Afternoons show without causing much of a stir but we seemed to make a real splash with this one. I thought you might be interested to see what sort of feedback comes in after an interview like this plays out, so I’m dropping in around ten minutes worth of audience text messages below. I’m not looking for your reassurance or sympathy! I’m lucky that I don’t get too affected by reading through this stuff - in fact I quite enjoy it, though I can understand why presenters on more politics-driven shows choose not to read them at all.

Can you learn anything from reading the first impressions of 100 people sent via a fairly anonymous medium? Not sure. I don’t expect you to read them all but they’re all here if you want them. There are a heap, and they are passionate as:

Great to hear Jacinda. An inspiring woman.Pity the interview started off negatively with nos of a negative comments The numbers shows mysogny is still on NZ social media. There are millions of nzers who supported Jacinda.she is inspiring. Jeanette

Excellent interview. Boy I miss her

Hi Jesse Good interview with Jacinda. Of course she can't speak out against Trump - he'll cancel her visa and she'll have to return home to face the music! While I was listening I could picture her face - smiling laughing and apparently genial but what does she really think and feel? You did well though! Anne

What a poor quality interview of Jacinda Ardern by Jessie just now. A really lost opportunity. Instead of asking her about her ambitions and achievements during her 'primeministership he offered his view of her non-achievements in comparison with our current (appalling) coalition. Shame on you Jessie and time for RNZ to find a more intelligent better informed and articulate interviewer.

just bought Jacinda's book. I am a worrier. not a cryer or hugger. I love Jacinda so any criticism of her goes over my head.Kazz Gisborne. Clarke's home turf.

You were incredibly tough in your interview with one of New Zealands best Prime ministers.

Thank you Jessie for a more balanced interview of Jacinda Ardern than I would have expected from National Radio. As a long term ‘heavy' listener I have listened less primarily because I have found the the station has failed to be apolitical. I'm a swinging voter but I value robust debate but that seems to have been missing from the increasingly left wing radio. One friend calls it Red Radio. Your interview helped to put the balance back. Thank you and I will tune back in more often.

*major

Hi JesseListening to interview with Jacinda I recall the joy and pride I felt during her years in in power a feeling that is completely absent now instead shame is the predominant emotion I feel.Enjoyed the interview although it was too short. Look forward to reading the book. Susann Chch

Great to hear Jacinda Ardern speaking with Jesse but why is there no posting of this msjor interview on the Afternoons Facebook page? NgÄ mihi Brent

Jessie's interview with Jacinda was one of the worst interviews I've heard him have. He just tried to nail her and she stuck to her guns- good on her.

Jessie I think we need to let go of the blame over the Covid years. This was a terrible period of time and should not define every discussion anyone has with Jacinda Ardern. Everyone did the best they could with what they knew. I was horrified to hear you talking about how effective the current coalition government is cos it doesn't care about people's feelings. We are a lesser country with them in charge. It would have been good for this interview (the first one in a while) to focus on what JA is trying to achieve and the difference she hopes to make and the many others who hope to change the misogynist political landscape .. Thanks Annette from Waiheke

Did not enjoy your iv with Jacinda. Had an air of mysogyny and R wing leanings.

Totally disappointed in the interview this afternoon with Jacinda Ardern. You have just lost another listener! What a wasted opportunity. To spend the time trying to incite a leader to rubbish Trump when her philosophy is about kindness beggars belief!!

Wonderful interview with Ms Ardern.. thanks so much for a thoughtful and informative discussion with her Jessie...Anne from Hamilton

Jesse thank you. A great and fair and yet politely probing but always genuine interview. I cannot imagine anyone else doing better - and because it was with a man with your values which don't allow over-riding by your opinions. And even unable to be matched by Kathryn.I'll be interested to hear the range of text responses. Kate. Christchurch

'Your first kiss?' Really? I cringed through most of that interview. This is Dame Jacinda Ardern whom I think deserves more respect than that atrocious interview gave.

Jacinda's book interview stirred raw hurt emotion. She is far from a kind person and did not listen nor respond to the people of New Zealand. It's still alive emotion - present like it was yesterday. She remains steadfastly unapologetic.

(sorry for this long text):Until now Ms Adern has always refused to address one of the major issues of her mandate ie the prolonged and draconian COVID-19 mandate. This is both disrespectful and hurtful to the many New Zealanders who had to bear the fallout from her heavy-handed decrees. In the years since her departure it smacks of protecting her brand while she became a global influencer and the fallout from of her divisive policies could dissipate in a cloud of soft promotional interviews. The mandate destroyed careers caused long term medical harm (including deaths) and divided communities - but the plight of these victims was brushed aside as collateral damage for the greater good. It must have been so hard after the intoxicating accolades that rolled in as New Zealanders knuckled down to the 'Go hard go early' lockdown and border restrictions that worked (at first) to keep COVID-19 at bay. We looked good & Adern looked good. But it was never going to last; a virus is not a naughty child that can be locked up indefinitely. Moreover in today's information age many citizens are well-informed about their personal health management. Hesitancy toward vaccination should not automatically be equated with anti-vaccination sentiment. Unfortunately Ms. Ardern appeared to rely exclusively on mainstream perspectives (from the medical experts the scientists the pharmaceutical companies) which she disseminated through selected members of the media. She followed their advice - and their advice only -  to impose arbitrary vaccination rates all the while dismissing out of hand any safe alternative approaches to managing one's personal health.Evidence suggests that other effective and sustainable methods for virus containment do exist but recognizing and accepting these alternatives requires intellectual flexibility personal research and reflection and a willingness to consider diverse viewpoints.While Ms. Ardern has attributed the public backlash she faced toward the end of her prime ministership to gender bias this assessment misses the mark. The decline in her popularity stemmed primarily from her performance on the above and other matters. Open mindedness humility the ability to own one's errors (and learn from them)  - are all attributes of great minds and great statesmen and women. Being kind is all well and good but at the end of her time it was a hollow promise.

Jacinda is the best prime minister NZ has ever had! Generous of heart with compassion intelligence and grace.

Hearing Jacinda's voice on air again has been a great boon to my day. Miss her. Bill

I love Jacinda! She is an intelligent clever sensible and kind person. Jessie ... some of your interview questions are not great. How n earth can you think that these governments that get things done quickly are any good - Our current government are a bunch of bullies. I hate them they are disadvantaging the people who really matter in our country. Thank goodness Jacinda answered some of your pointed questions really well or in some cases did not answer you!!

NgÄ mihi nui Jacinda ki te mahi. Arohanui wahine toa.

I reckon I have heard far better questions from high school students. Inane as so oft. Nana

Hi JesseThat interview with Jacinda was very interesting until it was trivialised with those stupid and insulting quick fire questions. what ever were you trying to do? Liz Wellington

Great interview with Jacinda Jesse.

Oh how we miss her! Imagine her at the new zealand music awards....as opposed to what we got with Chris bishop!

Jesse. Would you have asked a man about his first kiss. Come on. Pathetic.

I have just listened to the rudest and worst interview I have ever heard on RNZ.Mary

Lovely interview with thoughtful and searching questions. Thanks

Great interview Jesse...probing but not rude or intrusive

Jucinda is without doubt the best PM this country has ever had

Good on you Jacinda ! Well done .

How refreshing to hear Jacinda Adern again : NZ was truly fortunate to have had her as leader

Loving hearing our incredible most loved Jacinda. Can't wait to get your book! You definitely made NZ and the world a better place! Lesley

Congratulations to Jacinda Adern who maintained courteous patient and pleasant as Jesse displayed a confrontational demeaning form of questioning towards her. Would have been wonderful to hear jesse actually welcoming jacinda onto his show also. No thank you at the end either? Jill

Trivial questions Jesse.Unworthy and not your best interview at all.Jack and FamilyPenrose AK

Jesse I like Jacinda's answers. Clear and not fumbling or shaking a finger. Great interview harry

Rnz has been going down in quality for a while and mulligan has moved it down a few more notches. Nga mihi. Grant

Just listening to JessieGood interview with Jacinda but I strongly disagree with Jessie's assertion that National is getting more things done. Don't let us confuse pulling things down - like Kainga Ora- with getting things done. KO was building over 4000 houses a year; this govt is building much much less. Labour under Jacinda got a lot done on climate change this govt is doing almost nothing. Ralph

Dear Jesse you are being a wee arse in your interview with Jacinta Ardern. Crappy crass questions. Be embarrassed.

Jesse you have totally misrepresented people like me as a New Zealander in your interview with Jacinda Ardern. We greatly appreciated and appreciate her leadership as prime minister and since. You emphasised the negative far too much. A shame.

She cost my wife and I thousands of dollars to warm our two rentals which were perfectly warm before

Come on Jeremy..... dumbo question s.... your better than that!!

Jesse I think it's mean to push Jacinda into Trump issues.

Why the trivial stupid questions for Jacinda Adern??? Lame. Glen. Karori

What a dick Jesse. She is the heart of change but doesn't have to be overtly vocal on trump. She lives in America and works at Harvard which is under attack. Why attack her ? Nana

We love you and we miss you Jacinda Steve

Are you attempting to be Mike Hoskings Jesse?

Jesse this government is regarded by so many intelligent learned people that this present govt is a horrific disaster for our society and our environment of continual impossible growth . i think what you say is most harmful to our future.Exponential growth is death

Hello making people loose their jobs how can that be kind ...😞Jacinda ... Fraudster

Jesse you are not acquitting yourself well with Jacinda. She's owning you

Adern...tell her to come home...many many more kiwis than not admire her.

She and Robertson nearly ruined our country and is now riding on the back of the Christchurch shooting

Hi JesseWell done on an excellent interview with Jacinda Ardern. Despite being a long term National supporter I must say Jacinda acquitted herself remarkably well and confidently defended her political moves when in power as our Prime Minister. She has reinforced my respect for her and is clearly representing New Zealand exceptionally well in the US at Harvard University. Great radio listening Johnin Masterton

A women shud have done this Korero with Jacinda

Jesse you're playing devil's advocate right? Or you clearly have yet to acquire experience...

I would have thought that the Trump administration trying to locate 300000 missing children who will let through the border or traffic through the border in the past four years was a kind thing

Covid..NZ had one of the least amount of times in 'lockdown' globally at the time...but selfish selfish NZers don't recognise that and just moan and moan about their bloody 'rights'.Shamefull.

Jacinda also brought in free period products in schools. A huge socialJustice change. Levelling the playing field for menstruators at school

Jacinda changed the world when she said. They are us.

Coalition have wrecked this country! I guess you are an act supporter😒

Right on J. Jesse a republican lol

Jacinda Ardern : THE BEST ... EVER!!!We WILL remember her ... FOREVER!!! Kindness WILL preveal.

Jessie thank you for the interview with Jacinda. The only thing I believe was absolutely wrong and cruel was to obstruct family being with their dying family member in hospital. You will never ever ever get over not being able to say their final goodbye and witj a hug or holding the hand. God forbid that ever ever happens again in our country.Helen from Timaru

Jacinda was an extraordinary leader during times when hard work and compassion was essential. Noone had worked so hard and daily stood up in front of her people to explain why they were doing what was necessary. But her people failed her. Driven by tribalismSexism and individualism they proved they were undeserving. Phil

Jacinda was an incredible PM and I simply don't understand the vitriol against her. Eric in Tauranga

Hi Jesse - this is absolutely disgusting and you should reconsider giving these psychopaths a platform. Have a great day.

You've had that liar talking about Gaza shootings several times today. Come on!

So good to hear Jacinda again. Her humility kindness and empathy were unheard of in politicians and set a bar that may well be unattainable for others. No wonder the present government is struggling so hard.

Jessie you are acting as if Jacinda was still the PM - disrespectful - Sandra

Very good interview with Jacinda Ardern very well handled. I don't think she was expecting such a rigorous encounter. John

Great Interview with Jacinda Jesse. She will always our number one PM.

When you're ready I'm in carpark across the road. xx

Kia Ora Jesse Sue here in Taranaki;Thousands even millions of us admire praise & treasure our World Famous PM Jacinda for her massive undertaking to keep kiwis as safe as possible until we could get vaccinated & ahead of covid. We are alive now because of her then. Deep appreciation of her & her actions on all of our behalf. Those noisy mysogynists who cannot understand what she & her colleagues did & what they achieved get far too much credit as if they are the only opinion .. just a noisy minority. Don't let them drown out the huge majority who will always be grateful for her courage and foresight in the emergencies.

Thin skin? Luxon is so much more thin skinned!!

Watch out for this person she ain't the lovely person she would like us to believe Denis

Would she relinquish her Dame-hood in line with Helen Clarke's stand on the same. John. Tauranga.

Great to listen to Jacinda. She's special-like her politics or not she is all the things she claims to be. Kind & genuine

Awww we so miss gorgeous Jacinda and appreciate all she did for us!

Hi Jesse Thanks for having Jacinda on today. I miss her as our PM with her care and empathy. So different to the Government we have today. Sue.

JesseHow ironical that Jacinda Arden is a Dame or accepted the title when it was the Labour Party that previously abolished the honours system in NZ in the first place.We still have a former Labour PM who openly advocates for getting rid of the system as she and her government previously did.Ardern's acceptance of the title smacks of being two faced to me. I had an uncle who turned a knighthood down on three occasions.Kevin

Hey Jessie there are heaps of Kiwis who still think Jacinda did a great job as PM. The misogyny must have been extremely hard for her. What she did right was applauded and when things weren't so great for hershe kept on trying until it finally got too hard. Alison Warkworth

Hi Jesse I bought jacindas book. Read 1st chapter. Enjoying it.Please thank her for how she led us through covid. Two of my clients are alive because of her decisive actions. I'll never forget that!Frank Upper Hutt

'Therapy with a deadline'...classic gorgeous line from a familiar voice. Thank you Jesse for wonderful questions and space in the interview. Really enjoying it.Natasha in Napier

Winston Churchill was thin skinned. He often wept on public.

How much hypocrisy can one person spout

For goodness sake ask her views on Ukraine and Gaza...cheers Chris

Many of us still love and are grateful to her. Barbara

Hi Jesse I am so sorry that Jacinda got so much vitriol. To me she is a hero and I miss her as our PM! Meg

LOVE this wahine toa Jacinda. Still the best PM we've had. I don't agree that we hate her - it's just a vocal few. The people in my circles all miss her and loved her leadership.

Hi Jacinda great to hear you again. We are huge admirers especially or the work you did as our PM. Hope Clark is doing some fish of the day in the U s. Love and best. WishesFrom Ray wishes to you both and baby.

No vitriol from here! Viva re her climate change work in amongst the many other fine works

Jesse there is also a great deal of love and gratitude to Jacinda. Don't magnify the anti vaxxers etc.

JesseI'm in my eight decade.Jacinda Adern was easily the best Prime Minister of my lifetime. Steve Birkenhead